Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

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Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  Admin on Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:57 pm

David writes a good article on what he didn't learn from Kung fu. What are things you didn't learn and learned in other arts?

http://nysanda.blog.com/2012/03/22/things-i-didnt-learn-from-kung-fu/


Last edited by Admin on Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:02 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)

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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  Paul Sacramento on Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:51 pm

Hmmm, that's a tough one but I would have to say that the IMPORTANCE of ground work and clinch work.
My first style of TCMA was five animals/hung kuen and I was just a kid so...
But while living in Portugal and learning Okinawan Goju/kyokushin I got into Boxing, judo and wrestling and that opened my eyes bigtime.
When I got to Canada I got into TKD to work on my kicks ( while continuing judo and boxing) for a few years and then finished my time in kyokushin and went to TCMA, WC/JKD and then Hung Kuen and because of what I had learned up till then, I can't say that I looked for in them, but if I had I would have found that stuff ( except gtound work) in a "sort of way", but nothing to the level outside of it.
After that I did MT and BJJ for a bit, but found myself called back to Hung Kuen and there I also found Southern Mantis ( brother of Shifu was a SPM guy).
None of these systems had ground work or submissions so I never would have found them if I always just done them.
None of them addressed the clinch outside of striking to NOT let the clinch happen and striking/grip breaking to get out of the clinch.
That said, I never went to any of the TCMA I trained to get any of those skills anyways, I never associated those things (ground submissions/work, clinch work) with TCMA.
As for the conditioning, nope, it was always expected that I would get my strength training and conditioning "on the side".



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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  Matt_Stampe on Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am

While I can agree that when UFC1 came out and the Gracie family was showing the world the effectiveness of ground fighting, I was still of the school of thought that all fighting does not have to go to the ground. As a matter of fact having friends take BJJ while I was just a Tai chi guy, i held my own in fighting and not going to ground based on Tui shou and maintaining root. I was never put on my back, the BJJ guys are comfortable on their back. Even if I went down, I was still in top position with feet still on the ground "rooted" so to speak and could rain down punches in a ground and pound style if it had gone that far, but it was play sparring. The difference here is that kung fu does not address the gorund fighting much and it sport kung fu, once someone is thrown to the ground, you get back up and continue fighting. Having taken some BJJ, I understand many of the reasons for the positions, transitions, and most importantly the submissions aka qi-na.

Conditioning: We did have conditioning at our school, however it was after class and usually involved the following:
1. burpies
2. horse stances
3. jumping and landing in horse stance
4. V-ups
5. sit ups
6. push ups
7. back bridges
8. pistols
9. jumping lunges.
10. leg raises.

There is another aspect of stamina and endurance that was in the "Jibengong" or Basics. these are all the various stretch kicks and such. I'll list some here. The Long Fist form training we did with completing an entire form that had running, jump kicks and such in 1:20 was very demanding as well. I had a teacher from Shanghai Jingwu Zhou Jianhua(Chin Woo) and two others, one from Mizung Lohan style (under Alex Kwok/Nick Scrima), another in college from Shaolin (Ching Ching Fang) and a Traditional Yang teacher who was also a famous Wushu teacher (He Weiqi). these basics are common to all of them.

Common Jibegong in Long Fist: Chin Woo, Mizung Lohan, Shaolin Longfist, and even wushu training:

1. Loosen neck, ankles and wrist.
2. Arm/shoulder circles, Waist circles, hip circles, knee circles. (variety of waist turning drills)
3. Heel stretch
4. Squat
5. Various stretches: wall stretches, floor stretches, partner stretches.
a. Single leg
b. Double leg
c. Splits (Chinese and regular)
d. Scales
e. etc.

Stance work stationary:
6. Horse stance (with staff on legs)
7. Bow stance and kneeling stance (knee almost touch ground)
8. Pistols as empty stance warm up
9. Empty stance
10. Drop stance
11. Balance stance
12. Half sitting stance
13. Full sitting stance
Stance work moving
14. Horse stance punching: variety including: horse stance to bow stance, horse stance to half sitting, horse stance to kneeling stance, etc.
15. Bow stance punching
16. Drop stance to bow stance to balance stance drill- low to high leg work.
17. Moving half sitting stance.
18. Combination of stances.
Kicking basics
19. Front stretch kick
20. Inside stretch kick
21. Outside stretch kick
22. Side stretch kick
23. Side kick (low, medium, high)
24. Chinese round kick (low , medium, high)
25. Inside and outside kick combines
26. Slap kick
27. Double slap kick
28. Shovel kick
29. Back kick
30. Low front sweep (180) degree
31. Low back sweep (360) degree
32. Front snap kick (Tan tuei)
33. Combined front snap kick and side kick
34. Circle arm slap kick
35. Front jump kick
36. Tornado kick
37. Lotus kick
38. Butterfly kick
39. Cartwheels and Aerial (cartwheel no hands)



Having had trained at a MMA school, the strength training WAS brought to a new light. Especially with some of the Crossfit stuff.
Kettlebells,
resistance bands,
power and Olympic lifts,
circuits
high intense interval training
jump rope
track workouts.
All these things really opened my eyes to more intense level of "toughness" training, but I am glad that my foundation in Chinese martial arts had me ahead of the class. I was very tired, i just didnt show it.

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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  Mike Patterson on Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:11 pm

My experiences were vastly different (than what has been said so far here or in David's blog post) while training in Taiwan. But I have heard such perspectives from others before and such pronouncements used to surprise me.. used to..

Hsu Hong Chi's classes were pretty much nothing BUT full-on conditioning. If you wished to learn the forms of the system, you had to come at other times or stay later. Class was not about that. Class was about two things; conditioning and fighting training. Two hours of:

1st hour -
Tien Kan (core strengthening exercises that incorporate dynamic stance training into them)
Shaking Trainings (for IMA power mechanics)
Body banging exercises (all types and all parts)
Floor exercises for strength training in various forms, Fhu Hu Kung (lying tiger abilities) being one such type
Interspersed with Crane dips (one legged full squats), numerous variations of pushups both two armed and one armed methods, numerous and varied abdominal exercises

2nd hour -
tumbling and throwing training
ground work (both one up, one down and both down as starting points)
sparring with no target or method restrictions what-so-ever (sometimes with no pads for control, other times with pads for contact and dealing with real impact)
And if you could still stand up; Some form of standing meditation as a "cool down"

However, my experience has shown me that most TCMA schools have forgotten their roots. This was true 30 years ago and it's worse now.

The one thing I applaud MMA for is the "wake up" call the movement has inflicted on many TCMA teachers. That's a good thing I feel. But the notion that these things didn't exist in TCMA training before... well, not so in my lineage anyways.

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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  David A Ross on Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:06 pm

This thread is based upon a (very) short blog I did... I didn't go into detail and so I suppose it is easy to get many different reactions

In my years doing CMA (particularly SOUTHERN cma) we did plenty of stance work. Often HOURS of it. HOWEVER, I find it static and out of "context"... I will also say that in many traditions stance training wasn't used just for conditioning but also to "weed out" students. I think in today's world there are better ways to (1) learn footwork, (2) develop leg strength and (3) create mental focus.

We also did plenty of "sam sing" or body conditioning (or "body banging) involving striking our arms, shoulders, hips , etc. Again, I think there are better ways of doing these things.

I've seen a bit of the Fu Hu Kung, great stuff indeed... and too little of it done in most CMA places...

Thus, my point was that there is less conditioning than is necessary and many of the conditioning that is "traditional" can be done in better ways

A more "modern" approach involves conditioning INTEGRATED with the techniques/drills. We use a lot of interval drills. We use a lot of equipment. We use conditioning that replicates the "flow" of combat

There is good stuff in TCMA, there is also good stuff in modern training methods. I prefer to stay open minded

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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  Eric_Koeppen on Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:58 pm

First post here, looks like a nice forum.

David A Ross wrote:In my years doing CMA (particularly SOUTHERN cma) we did plenty of stance work. Often HOURS of it. HOWEVER, I find it static and out of "context"... I will also say that in many traditions stance training wasn't used just for conditioning but also to "weed out" students. I think in today's world there are better ways to (1) learn footwork, (2) develop leg strength and (3) create mental focus.

I've had arguments with my traditional friends many times about stance work.
I hate it, it hurts my knees, and I find it detracts from mobility - which should be one of the 3 purposes of footwork: mobility, balance, and power generation.
My friends counter with the idea that the stances were used for "stance fighting" - which sounds like judo/shuai chiao without hands.
I've never seen this "stance fighting" in person, nobody does it anymore, and so I really don't see the point.

If anything, I think it looks prettier when doing forms in public or playing the lion - both of which have been major money makers for schools for decades.

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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  Mike Patterson on Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:57 pm

I agree that dogmatic adherence to traditional methods just for the sake of tradition is ridiculous. That said, what may be "better" would have to be discussed on individual merit regarding each methodology under consideration.

For example: I have seen many schools practice "static" stance training. We practiced more "dynamic" stance training than static. And by this I mean learning to shift with force while stepping, twisting, reaping, etc. This was then integrated into partner play almost immediately after we got the idea of how to keep a good ground connection and the emphasis then went to mobility WITH strength against an uncooperative partner. I still do this with my people.

Static stance training can serve a useful purpose of teaching a student to relax those muscles that are not needed to hold the position inducing a less "antagonistic" state in the body. Or, to "weed" those that are less diligent out, as David points out. But beyond that, there are other ways and static stance training has precious little to do with fighting in the larger sense.

"Conditioning" takes two forms. You need aerobic and anaerobic conditioning for certain, which can be addressed through interval training. Integrated combative flow drills have been a staple in my school for decades.

But you also need mental and physical toughness to be able to take a strike and keep moving effectively. And for the latter, smacking each other around is a good way to go. I'm not sure I have seen a "better" way to accomplish this. OC, in our tradition we also practice Shi Swei and part of that discipline involves hitting the body with an iron flail, so in our methods, it can't be all put off on body banging exercises.

I also believe in utilizing equipment. But in many respects, it's merely reinventing the wheel. I.E. a modern "kettle bell" is equivalent to a "stone key" which has been a strength training implement in the circles I travel in forever and a day. Certainly far from new.

I most definitely agree that there is far too little of all the above in the average school. And that has been the case for quite some time. I will go so far as to say that in the early goings of our involvement with Kuoshu in the 90's, many of my fighters won on shear conditioning. You simply can't do much in the final rounds without addressing this effectively.

I also keep an open mind to new perspectives in training. But I keep an eye to results more than anything else. If you want to convince me of "better" you're going to have to show me. Smile

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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  David A Ross on Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:27 am

It's funny, I was in the school tonight and our Jiu Jitsu coach was running his class, he was doing some floor work to warm up/condition and as I looked at it, wow, looked so much like "Fu Hu Kung"

Language is limiting at times, or just plain a trickster. "traditional" vs "modern"

it really should be just what works

Stone locks, "mok yee pai" (don't know the mandarin for this, sorry!), kettlebells or just plain dumbells... elastic tubing or just a rope, a tree or a power rack... shouldn't matter really

Yes, I have a strong dislike for "static"... we still do "stance training" but not in the static sense. Most of the time we do it with a partner, in wrestling they don't even have a name for it, but the drill exists in our Lama Pai as "5 star stepping" so if you need a name.... what is important is knowing the five places to step and the two not to step

I am a BIG fan of yoga, which of course is a pretty old form of exercise...

I am also aware that "new" often means "fad"

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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  David A Ross on Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:38 am



don't know if this works??
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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  Mike Patterson on Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:22 pm

Well.... the way he's doing them, you won't derive full benefit. He's not utilizing the proper form, which translates to the wrong muscle groups, in any of them. You would think after all these years he would have learned to do those exercises more correctly. And what's up with the mat on the last routine?! It's only a hardwood floor! Geesh! Rolling Eyes

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Re: Things you didnt learn from Kung fu

Post  David A Ross on Fri Mar 30, 2012 2:03 pm

Mike Patterson wrote:Well.... the way he's doing them, you won't derive full benefit. He's not utilizing the proper form, which translates to the wrong muscle groups, in any of them. You would think after all these years he would have learned to do those exercises more correctly. And what's up with the mat on the last routine?! It's only a hardwood floor! Geesh! Rolling Eyes

well, forgive me, it was the only clip I could find Laughing

maybe someone should put up a better version, the correct one! santa
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