Push hands, clinching, standing wrestling, hand fighting, etc

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Push hands, clinching, standing wrestling, hand fighting, etc

Post  David A Ross on Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:59 pm

When you're old there is only one advantage, you've been there and done that. It's like that old man sitting on the park bench. He's been sitting on that same park bench every day for years, nothing really surprises him any more Very Happy

I've seen chi sau, push hands, rou shou, Muay Thai clinching, hand fighting in wrestling, pummeling, etc etc etc. Whatever you want to call it, controlling and defending in a standing close contact situation is important

Personally, I have found the standard chi sau format lacking. I say that because the structure they begin and conduct the drilling under is from unrealistic beginnings and structure. The skills they are developing are real (and important) but you aren't developing them the most efficient way by starting from an unrealistic position, and restricting how you practice in in a way that is out of context with how it is ACTUALLY USED.

I've then watched people go absolutely crazy just for even suggesting there is a better way to practice Very Happy

The push hands in the US is NOT the push hands they do in Asia. Certainly the push hands they do in Taiwan is much more practical. However, even it has some "rules" or conventions that make me scratch my head? confused

For us (my school) no area or tactic is "off bounds" so we do
1) neck ties (including the sorts of things you see in Muay Thai in the "plam")

2) bicep clinching

3) Body pummeling including seat belts, body locks, over hooks, under hooks etc

4) leg attacks

Can anyone see a reason that something like push hands should restrict neck ties for example?
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Re: Push hands, clinching, standing wrestling, hand fighting, etc

Post  Mike Patterson on Thu Dec 15, 2011 5:59 pm

David A Ross wrote:...The push hands in the US is NOT the push hands they do in Asia. Certainly the push hands they do in Taiwan is much more practical. However, even it has some "rules" or conventions that make me scratch my head? confused

For us (my school) no area or tactic is "off bounds" so we do
1) neck ties (including the sorts of things you see in Muay Thai in the "plam")

2) bicep clinching

3) Body pummeling including seat belts, body locks, over hooks, under hooks etc

4) leg attacks

Can anyone see a reason that something like push hands should restrict neck ties for example?

Well... we don't restrict that in our structure either David. The way we were trained there are very few restrictions in "freestyle" push hands (as you and me have spoken about before elsewhere). But here they are again:

1) No kicking
2) No striking the face (at least not for a very long time, see below).
3) No fisted attacks, open hand only (this is to both encourage relaxed movement and to keep a relative safety measure in place but still allow the practice to be "spirited").

Everything else is allowed. The neck is considered the second "primary control" so we do not restrict hooking the neck at all. We also allow elbows, knees, shoulder strokes, grappling, throwing, sweeping and ground submission.

Basically, for us, what we call freestyle push hands is designed to be a "relatively safe" simulation of the clinch after the initial bridging engagement.

At upper levels we also will sometimes put on headgear and allow head shots in freestyle push hands. But not until what we consider proper structure and grounding/rooting/balance issues have been ingrained.

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Re: Push hands, clinching, standing wrestling, hand fighting, etc

Post  David A Ross on Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:24 pm

Mike Patterson wrote:

Well... we don't restrict that in our structure either David. The way we were trained there are very few restrictions in "freestyle" push hands (as you and me have spoken about before elsewhere). But here they are again:

1) No kicking
2) No striking the face (at least not for a very long time, see below).
3) No fisted attacks, open hand only (this is to both encourage relaxed movement and to keep a relative safety measure in place but still allow the practice to be "spirited").

Everything else is allowed. The neck is considered the second "primary control" so we do not restrict hooking the neck at all. We also allow elbows, knees, shoulder strokes, grappling, throwing, sweeping and ground submission.


All of this I understand and agree with, but I'm sure you know the sort of "push hands" I am talking about ! Wink

Mike Patterson wrote:

Basically, for us, what we call freestyle push hands is designed to be a "relatively safe" simulation of the clinch after the initial bridging engagement.


Yes, we do the same, have the same approach, you can't go "all out" all the time, that's silly Very Happy
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Re: Push hands, clinching, standing wrestling, hand fighting, etc

Post  David A Ross on Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:25 pm

others, PLEASE share your experiences and thoughts!
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Re: Push hands, clinching, standing wrestling, hand fighting, etc

Post  Mike Patterson on Thu Dec 15, 2011 8:45 pm

[quote="David A Ross
All of this I understand and agree with, but I'm sure you know the sort of "push hands" I am talking about ! Wink
[/quote]

Yes, I think I do. My teacher used to poke fun at such.. he would stand across from one of us and "demonstrate" the sort of soft "push/pull" only type that some folks favor over all else. And, after having one of us "gently" push him off balance, he would say.. "ohhhh, ohhhh... oh, you beat me.. oh, too bad". And then we would do it again to only repeat the same sort of mock display. Thereupon he would say; "See. This style have no consequence. They no care win, lose. So make same mistake over and over again. Our way better. We make mistake, have HURT. This more better I think. Pain good teacher."

Indeed. Laughing

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Re: Push hands, clinching, standing wrestling, hand fighting, etc

Post  David A Ross on Thu Dec 15, 2011 9:26 pm

Mike Patterson wrote:

Yes, I think I do. My teacher used to poke fun at such.. he would stand across from one of us and "demonstrate" the sort of soft "push/pull" only type that some folks favor over all else. And, after having one of us "gently" push him off balance, he would say.. "ohhhh, ohhhh... oh, you beat me.. oh, too bad". And then we would do it again to only repeat the same sort of mock display. Thereupon he would say; "See. This style have no consequence. They no care win, lose. So make same mistake over and over again. Our way better. We make mistake, have HURT. This more better I think. Pain good teacher."

Indeed. Laughing

sounds a lot like my teacher Razz
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Re: Push hands, clinching, standing wrestling, hand fighting, etc

Post  David A Ross on Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:51 pm

Comparing push hands/wrestling/clinching vs disconnected "striking" (gasp "kickboxing" Very Happy LOL)

A very long time ago a Bagua teacher said to me something like "when you are standing by yourself the center is inside you, when you are touching an opponent the center is somewhere else outside you" (I am paraphrasing of course)

I was about 19 at the time so I was like "uh, ok" Very Happy

1000 years later I agree completely. The "rules" we apply to our striking when we are disconnected are often quite different to things we do once connected (ie clinching)

Now, I really hope other will jump in here, and share their experience, opinions and of course QUESTIONS
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